Talk Louisiana: Len Apcar Interview

Jim Engster: This is Jim Engster, and we start our show originating from the InVEST Star Tower in Baton Rouge with Len Apcar, now a decade at LSU. He’s a man of the world: grew up in San Francisco, educated in Southern California at Claremont College, worked for the Wall Street Journal for a dozen years, and for the New York Times for how many? How many years

Len Apcar: Twenty-four.

Jim Engster: He has been at the highest levels of American journalism, and now he’s instructing students as a professor at the Manship School. We just had an election, as we know, and it was a surprise for some. We thought it was going to be close, but I think many of the insiders thought that the momentum was with Kamala Harris. It turned out it was with Donald Trump, who won—not a landslide—but he got 49.9% of the overall votes, and she got 48.4%. He carried those swing states of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania by close margins, but he carried them enough to get 312 electoral votes, which gave him a comfortable majority in the Electoral College.

So, Donald Trump, next month, will become the 47th American president after having been the 45th. He is the modern-day Grover Cleveland. We had James Carville on this show a few weeks ago, and he was talking about how this was a change election, and that Harris and the Democrats misfired by not offering some change. You say that there was change that was called for, but maybe even superseding the mood for change was the cynicism of the electorate. What’s going on with the American public, and how does your research confirm this? Many believe that some people are just worn out and tired, not really into it as far as American politics and getting the kind of information needed to make an intelligent choice.

Len Apcar: I want to say, first of all, this poll that we did with the University of Chicago and LSU was never intended to predict the election or take a pulse on the American electorate. We got started on this by looking at news dropouts and news avoiders. I can come back to that in a minute. As the poll went on, we interviewed 3,000 Americans across the country about their views on the American Dream, democracy, and their news reading habits. What we found was not just anger—we knew that—but this disillusionment that has led people to question democracy and fair institutions. We also knew the trust in institutions has dropped precipitously compared to past polls. We found very little trust in politicians or the government to solve any of this.

It didn’t surprise me at all that Kamala Harris misread what was going on this summer. She had a very limited time to make her case. People were not going to respond to the politics of joy. In so many parts of this country, there is very little feeling about that. What I found was not just cynicism and anger but a complete disillusionment with whether America is the greatest country in the world, whether democracy is the best approach, and whether the American Dream is within reach. Some of this is colored by the blue battleground states. On election night, when states started turning red—red, red, red—I knew it was over. It reminded me of my experiences in the ‘80s when I went from one closing plant to another, into families' homes and the bars where blue-collar workers were. I saw the beginning of this complete disillusionment: the life their grandfather or father had—30 and out with a UAW plant or a steel mill—was gone. I knew then this was going to have long repercussions.

What you see today is a deep resentment about trade policy and immigration. In candidate terms, I think the Democrats misread that completely. Donald Trump read it well. He was a brilliant messenger—brilliant in his simplicity. “Build a wall.” “Put a tariff.” We can argue all night about whether that makes sense, but to a large degree, that’s all many Americans wanted to hear. Harris got a lot of votes, as you said, but she almost won only in certain parts of this country and among certain demographics.

Jim Engster: You worked in Detroit?

Len Apcar: Yes, I did.

Jim Engster: It’s one of those cities that I think is a Democratic city, but it’s not as Democratic as it once was. Elections are won at the margins, and Trump has tapped into this disillusionment.

Len Apcar: It was built up. I was in Detroit in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s. I was in these auto plant towns in Indiana, Michigan, and all over the Midwest. The unraveling began as imports took a greater market share. Plants closed, steel mills were sold, bought, and destroyed. All of that played out. You see this through a lot of societal problems. There’s clear evidence—not a huge percentage but clear evidence—of the opioid crisis that grew out of the end of these factory jobs. These were nice lives—American Dream lives. You could go to work in a mill or an auto plant with good wages, benefits, and protection. You’d retire in 30 years with a nice pension, a boat, and a cabin. You could live like your grandfather, who was confident you’d live better. That’s gone.

Trump articulated this. This has been going on for decades. The government’s inability to deal with it has completely disillusioned people. It’s affected their news reading habits, their trust in the media, and how they think about the government. Now, many feel the country needs a complete overhaul. That shows up in the poll results.

Jim Engster: Well, in my day, there weren’t all these avenues to get news, and the ones we used were generally mainstream media. As much as they’re maligned, they try to present accurate news. But, sometimes, it’s more propaganda than real news. People live in echo chambers and don’t get the information they need. How much of that is a factor?

Len Apcar: A lot of people now get their information from friends or social media. They’ve dropped out of mainstream media, ignored it, or consumed it episodically. When they do, they don’t trust the big media as an institution. That comes across in the polling—people trust the media they self-select. For example, they may trust Fox and not CNN. We’ve known this for a while. This poll started with a brief anecdote. I was at my dentist, and the hygienist asked what I did. I said I teach journalism and a class on fake news. She asked if the local paper was good. I said the Advocate is quite good for a city this size. She replied, “I don’t read it.” When I asked if she read any news at all, she said, “No. I just never thought about it.”

That got me thinking about civic responsibility, civic engagement, trust in institutions, and people’s sense of responsibility to be informed. We broadened this into 75 questions for the poll.

Jim Engster: Hold that thought. We’ll be back with more from Len Apcar after this message on Talk Louisiana. This is Jim Engster, and you’re listening to Talk Louisiana. Len worked 12 years with the Wall Street Journal and 24 years with the New York Times. He’s been at the highest levels of American journalism. A poll of 3,000 respondents, financed by the Manship School and involving the University of Chicago, looked at cynicism in American government leading up to the 2024 election. Len, you said cynicism might have tilted the election more than anything else, partly related to how we get our information.

Len Apcar: Yes, the poll wasn’t designed to predict the election outcome. It examined broader American attitudes about government, the American Dream, and personal economic situations. The analysis coincided with the election, and scholars discussed it in Washington. Inflation and grocery prices were huge factors, but there’s a larger piece about disillusionment with government, politicians, and media. Some are angry, some ambivalent, and some just drop out. We wanted to tap into civic engagement and news reading habits.

Jim Engster: Harris did well on the coasts but not elsewhere. She carried eight states west of Virginia, while Trump carried the South. How do we explain this regional divide?

Len Apcar: A lot stems from economic experiences. Take the Midwest, where I spent five years. When I visit friends in Detroit or Michigan, I’m struck by the slow recovery. Detroit and Baltimore are seeing positive changes, but the upheaval of the ‘80s and ‘90s left families clinging to a better life without a college education. When government and private industry failed to address this, trust in institutions eroded. In the poll, 25% said the country needs a total overhaul, not partial. A strong majority of respondents, regardless of political leaning, didn’t trust the government or believe America’s best days lie ahead. That’s telling.

Jim Engster: Politicians often manipulate media to make their message palatable. Media rarely reflects on how to better reach people with what’s real. Should the media adjust?

Len Apcar: I agree. When Trump was elected, the New York Times had a mea culpa moment. They said they’d relocate correspondents and better cover underreported areas. They did some of this, capturing fleeting moments, but they missed the deep-rooted issues. America needs better immigration and trade policies. As a young business editor in the ’90s, I saw flawed trade policy decisions. While I’m no expert on immigration, it clearly undercut American job opportunities and fueled discontent.

Jim Engster: It’s going to be a fascinating ride. You’ve given Donald Trump his due. He’s greatly flawed but a marketing genius.

Len Apcar: Absolutely. I saw it firsthand in New York. His business was up and down, but he knew how to build a name and communicate. Even with outrageous statements, he resonated with many Americans who feel the country needs a shake-up.

Jim Engster: Len Apcar, thank you for your insights. Thirty-six years with the Wall Street Journal and New York Times, now a decade at LSU. We’ll call on you again soon.

Len Apcar: Always a pleasure. Thank you.